Conference gyro::internet_toolss

>- To connect to a newsgroup I have to use a server anyway, is it correct?

	Yes but unlike Notes the NEWS servers talk to each other so that
	one server can provide access to all public newsgroups.

> - I am currently conmnmected to two servers, one for usenet and the other
>   one for msnews: I noticed they point to different newsgroups, is it 
>   correct?

	Yes.  The Microsoft newsgroups, like the Netscape newsgroups,
	are not widely distributed and are available only from specific
	NEWS servers.  Digital has specific gateway servers that talk
	to those specific servers.

> - How can I know if a newsgroup exists in the net and which server I have
>   to connect to access it? In other words, does it exist anything like
>   EASYNOTES.LIS?

	Unlike Notes, there is usualy one server for all public groups.
	Your NEWS client should have an option to "Show All Newsgroups".
	Within Digital you can only get to the limited set of newsgroups
	that are allowed through the firewall.  That list seems to be
	growing.

> - I imagine there are local newsgroups (i.e. newsgroups discussing 
>   technical or non-technical issues il local languages: do they exist? If
>   so, how can I locate a possible newsgroup discussing Technical 
>   Training in Italy in Italian (if it does exist)?

	I don't know anything about "local" newsgroups.

> - Working from Easynet can I connect to any newsgroup I want or only to
>   newsgroups serviced by servers like usenet.pa.dec.com? If so, is it 
>   available anywhere a list of serviced newsgrouips and related servers
>   or, at least, a list of available servers?

	You can only connect to news servers inside the firewall.  This
	will include one server for public groups and several for gateways
	to groups like Microsoft and Netscape.

	Somewhere there should be a list of some of the news (NNTP)
	servers/gateways available within Digital but I have not been able
	to locate it.  The server I use is "nntpd.bb.dec.com".

The list of news servers is in note 95.last of conference 
HUMANE::NEWS-BACKBONE

And yes, there are local newsgroups, their names usually start with 
the domain name of the country in question, so for Italy they would 
be it.*, I don't think there are many of them though.
Not all newsgroups are replicated on all Easynet servers so if you 
don't find what you're interested in on a server, try another one.

	Vincent

    Before you try a "show all newsgroups" (there are over 15,000 of them
    the last time I counted), you may want to try looking somewhere where
    they are conveniently indexed and described. One such index is
    http://www.w3.org/pub/DataSources/News/Groups/Overview.html . Other
    possibly better indexes and pointers to other USENET information are
    listed at http://www.yahoo.com/News_and_Media/Usenet/ .
    
    Not all news servers carry all newsgroups, so lists of newsgroups are
    often limited by what's carried on a particular news server. The one
    above, for example, reflects what's carried by the news server at CERN.
    
    If you use the Netscape news reader, to get a list without descriptions
    of the newsgroups carried by your selected news server, use the URL
    "news:*". It will take a _long_ time, though, and may not be of much
    practical use.
    
    -Tom

John A. Wasser (wasser@jamin.enet.dec.com) wrote:
: Title: Newsgroups
: Reply Title: (none)

: > - How can I know if a newsgroup exists in the net and which server I have
: >   to connect to access it? In other words, does it exist anything like
: >   EASYNOTES.LIS?

: 	Unlike Notes, there is usualy one server for all public groups.
: 	Your NEWS client should have an option to "Show All Newsgroups".
: 	Within Digital you can only get to the limited set of newsgroups
: 	that are allowed through the firewall.  That list seems to be
: 	growing.

The above statment is not correct. We do not limit the set of
newsgroups that are carried within the company except to limit abuse
that is carried out in group naming; we use the ISC list as the set of
newsgroups that we carry. We try to get a new list every week or so;
due to the potential for abuse we disable automatic group creation,
and run the list through a filter that prevents groups with excessive
length or non-printing characters in the name from being created.

Stephen
--
- -----
Stephen Stuart				stuart@pa.dec.com
Network Systems Laboratory
Digital Equipment Corporation
[posted by Notes-News gateway]

	Also note that there are newsgroups carried inside the company
	that do *not* get carried outside the company.  They are internal
	to Digital newsgroups only.  They are dec.*

In notes files, if you are a novice and ask a question, you will be told to
"do a directory before asking a question" and occasionally you will be told
to read the notes etiquiette.

In news groups you might be told to read the faq.  Or you might trigger a
string of drivel.  Rarely will you get a good answer because

	if the news group is read be people who are experts, they don't want
	novices clogging things up so they ignore you

	if the newsgroup is heavily used, the experts avoid it because there
	is too much chaff to ignore

	the experts still follow the newsgroup but they've already answered
	the question a dozen times and they aren't going to answer it again.

Besides its covered in the faq, unless there's no faq, in which case there
should be one, but I don't have time to put one together; we're in internet
time.

The thing about news groups is that no matter how timeless the posting, its
deleted in a week or two or 30 days, except for groups that are archived
on one node somewhere in the internet (and maybe shadowed a few other places).
Where is the archive?  Well that's covered in the faq.  Where's the faq?
That is also covered in the faq.  check out the newsgroup(s) with faq in the
name.

mulp (pettengill@twick.enet.dec.com) wrote:
: Title: Newsgroups
: Reply Title: Different culture...

: In notes files, if you are a novice and ask a question, you will be told to
: "do a directory before asking a question" and occasionally you will be told
: to read the notes etiquiette.

As a technology, Notes is only possible within an organization. If a
Notes-like technology were to be used for discussions between
competitors, who would you trust to hold the archive? Who would you
trust to implement an expire policy, given that permanent storage of
all discussion is not a viable (or desirable) option when the number
of talkers scales up to the Internet. (Even within Digital, large
Notes conferences have been archived).

Not only different cultures, but different requirements. News provides
decentralization of authority that Notes does not. Sometimes you want
that decentralization, sometimes you don't. News has been demonstrated
to scale up to the global Internet, Notes has not. Sometimes you need
that scaling. News runs on several different hardware/OS
architectures, while (last I checked) you still required a host with
VMS file systems to store a conference. 

News and Notes are different. They were born of different needs, and
live different lives, despite the fact that within Digital we
sometimes shuffle content between the two. The reason that IP and News
"won" on the global networks and DECnet and Notes "lost" is because
Digital has traditionally failed to recognise the existence of
administrative boundaries and the advantages of decentralization of
authority.

Stephen
- -----
Stephen Stuart				stuart@pa.dec.com
Network Systems Laboratory
Digital Equipment Corporation
[posted by Notes-News gateway]

RE: .7

	Notes server runs natively on Windows NT also. Clients too.
	(Tho I wish there was a character-cell version for NT)

	Notes has been TCP/IP "aware" for a LONG time.

	I won't disagree with your comments about "administrative
	boundaries" and Digitals failure to capitalize on software.
	(ok, I snuck that one in) I mearly wanted to bring up the
	fact that Notes is no longer "tied" to VMS.

							mike

>The thing about news groups is that no matter how timeless the posting, its
>deleted in a week or two or 30 days, except for groups that are archived
>on one node somewhere in the internet (and maybe shadowed a few other places).
>Where is the archive?  Well that's covered in the faq.  Where's the faq?
>That is also covered in the faq.  check out the newsgroup(s) with faq in the
>name.

    Well, it's not quite that bad. These days, there's DejaNews, which
    archives every non-binary newsgroup and allows searches. 

    For FAQs, there's rtfm.mit.edu. If you want to read the (for example)
    alt.alien.visitors FAQ, you can consistently find it at 
       ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.alien.visitors/.
    
    See 4560.* re: DejaNews,  ;)
    

    I was told once that the best way to get a response from a news group
    is to create an entry on a distantly-related topic, and casually
    include an *incorrect*, and inflammatory (or at least morally superior)
    reference to the topic you want information on.
    
    For example, if I wanted to konw the best CD ROM reader to buy, rather
    than say "What CD ROM reader should I buy?", instead you would say
    something like:
    
    	I just bought a *brand x* computer and it stinks.  Its wicked slow. 
    	And the *brand y* CD ROM won't run half my CDs.  I researched CDs
    	thoroughly before buying this system, and *brand y* was the best,
    	so it has to be the *brand x* computer's fault.
    
    There will be a flurry of notes agreeing with and criticizing *brand x*
    computer, but eventually the rathole will wander off to discuss the
    "*brand y* was best" statement in horrific detail.  From this, and
    perhaps with occasional prodding, you'll eventually even get the gurus
    involved to "set the record straight".
    
    I've seen this technique work.  I can't imagine anything more
    grotesque.
    
    jeb